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 'Keep your foot in - and don't lift'
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Martin
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United Kingdom
7828 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2017 :  19:45:45  Show Profile  Visit Martin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What you need with little torque and lots of revs..... in a 126.....

or what your rally coach means by "Staying in" - on the throttle....

man does that look like fun or what?

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/this-crazy-fiat-126-rally-driver-would-make-colin-mcrae-proud/

Martin

fostertom
Net Member

United Kingdom
993 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2017 :  17:56:57  Show Profile  Visit fostertom's Homepage  Reply with Quote
RWD for ya! Looks like they (car and man) are famous entertainers - composite of different events, even paint jobs.
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Martin
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United Kingdom
7828 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2017 :  14:45:39  Show Profile  Visit Martin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Its the same chassis - check out the dents carefully..... the body colour differences depend on the camera light filter ...... but I see what you mean by the different camera positions over different action days.

All those suspension mods (courtesy of Abarth & Co et al on the 500) really do the job. It just shows that the 126 with all the 500 mods makes a great little toy..... and its bomb proof so long as you don't use tyres with too much grip/ on too dry a surface.

..... With no weight in the rear and such a short wheelbase .... add some driver skills revs and hey presto!

Martin
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fostertom
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United Kingdom
993 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  13:20:52  Show Profile  Visit fostertom's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martin
no weight in the rear
Isn't that the point - rear engine puts most weight in the rear, giving lots of sideways action for situations like this where it's all slow loose bends
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Martin
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United Kingdom
7828 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  16:31:49  Show Profile  Visit Martin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well you can take the engine and box out on your own - usually with jack - but its a one man lift too.... so there isn't a lot of weight anywhere in the car.
What I am referring to is that the pendulum effect is almost absent.... when hanging the back end out, the time it takes to respond to opposite lock is quite small.... which is confidence inspiring for the novice et al. (So there's little more weight in the back relative to the rest of the car and its track.

This then gives more opportunity to keep the front to rear balanced with a load of throttle - and generations of Italian motorsports pilots/ engineers have added a load of tricks to stiffen the front suspension against bad movement/ habits. For sprinting you are looking for slide - oversteer action.
The only times I've ever seen this upset is when high grip surfaces and tyres overwhelm the original setups - then they all roll quite easily.

But if you were making a Fiat Bucket List - sports Fiats you've really got to give a real go before you hang the gloves up ...... then I'd thoroughly recommend the 126 with Abarth setup..... as the 126 is really a mark4 Fiat 500.... and it comes with lots of stronger bits as standard.

Martin
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Martin
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United Kingdom
7828 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2017 :  16:38:35  Show Profile  Visit Martin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Been asked...... Q. 'Exactly what is keeping your foot in about?'

A. It refers to the use of the throttle to balance a car when travelling sideways. In rallying technique, its the dynamic interaction between applying steering lock and changes in rear drive grip levels.

If I go back to about age 16 and my first rally driving lessons ......... position two cones about 6 to 8 car lengths apart on a flat grass field.

Take up driving rear wheel drive car in field. Avoid coned area for a bit of practice first. Choose tussock of grass and aim to drive past it on drivers side. Apply enough lock to turn past the grass at 5mph - about walking pace. There's a point in this turn when the rear end will break away.

Now to the part that takes practice. There's a point of steering angle - on opposite lock - when the steering angle quietens down the rear end breakaway, and a smallish lock change will start it up again..... but then changing the throttle (revs) also has an effect...... you need to master what is happening until you can make the car turn sideways with the same size circle at will. You pass by keeping the car sideways for as many circles as your teacher wishes...... and not trying to do it any faster.

Now onto graduation - still 5 mph - the trick is to repeat exercise on both sides of the car - until we can do figures of eight around both those cones.

Keeping your foot in is about having an educated throttle foot that can keep it all in balance. Because to back off the throttle too much when going sideways courts disaster......

Martin
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julian
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United Kingdom
3730 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  12:34:19  Show Profile  Visit julian's Homepage  Click to see julian's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
It doesn't just apply to rally or rear wheel drive, balancing the car on the throttle (to control yaw and drift) applies to any vehicle. Most front wheel drive fans are familiar with getting a car to cock the inside rear wheel in a corner - typically this coincides with that point in the turn where you can control the car on steering or throttle. Once the wheel is lifted a car is ready to spin and if provoked will do so, too much throttle (assuming there is grip) will drag the car back into line, touching the brakes of lifting off will provoke the spin. Balancing the throttle will neutralise any understeer while preventing uncontrollable oversteer.

For cars like the fiat racing challenge that Martin and myself are familiar with this is pretty much the only way to get around corners. A slow in, fast out approach is too slow in a race series where power is very much lacking but front end grip is high. The answer is to skip braking as much as possible, turn in and then use the throttle to steer the car. Lifting results in snap-oversteer (very amusing but it doesn't win races), mashing the throttle results in under-steer (not so amusing and also doesn't win races)... Get it right and the car just goes around the corner in a controlled FWD drift with the best exit speed you can hope for, it also helps to lean on any other cars on the outside to gain a little more - a delicate affair as the difference between "rubbing" and causing an incident is pretty subtle and in a series already carrying a bad reputation it isn't necessarily a good philosophy.

The beauty of all this is that in a FWD car, provided you don't run out of grip you have an immense amount of control over the line the car will take while pretty much disregarding any rear grip. Doing the same in a RWD car takes a lot more skill. My personal favourite is four wheel drifts in a mid-engined car - getting it right is incredibly satisfying and very fast...

2009 Abarth 500
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Martin
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United Kingdom
7828 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  13:02:34  Show Profile  Visit Martin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OK good points JB, s'pose that means complicating it all a bit more......

going to stick with the https://www.carthrottle.com/post/this-crazy-fiat-126-rally-driver-would-make-colin-mcrae-proud/ sequences although its an unusual car for general motorsport discussions.......

- Drift and Sideslip
- Weight transfer and Front : Rear balance effects
- Pendulum effects with body line side-on to direction of track

- Wheel locking...... really about grip and breaking traction effects
- Steering lock changes.... including opposite lock effects

Have I missed anything?
Anyhow in motorsport, grip is king. alongside of the ability to take effective corrective action - and I'd suggest this is the major divide between the race and rally techniques.
I'd expect most club racers to carry in excess of 2G through cornering - and for many single-seaters this is in excess of 3G. So the tyre/ suspension/ surface grip reaction suggests their speed - and lack of correction time. Their accuracy and response time is much narrower, yet their confidence that the grip will be there is critical.

Now back to video.... firstly I'd note that all the above listing is in play..... this driver is using a combination of these techniques in car control.
So first thing is his use of pendulum effects - he really doesn't trust the grip levels of his route! But holding the car sideways is giving security..... the 126 is also set to hang its tail at will (he doesn't need to handbrake or initiate on a reverse swing) it can also recover in-line rapidly..... so very light and confidence giving... I'd really suggest this is an ideal beginners car.... providing you have a decent roll cage.

But stick a decent Abarth based package in a strengthened 126 and you have a genuine fun package. Of course its a package for just this sort of mixed surface rally package..... but you won't be cornering above 60mph. And small capacity engine classes are disappearing from British Motorsport..... still a very enjoyable vid

Martin
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anonymous1
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5863 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  13:22:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
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Martin
Administrator

United Kingdom
7828 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  01:38:03  Show Profile  Visit Martin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sumplug

What a load of claptrap. Cannot read anymore on here without responding.
FWD, letting throttle off, brings car in line, not more throttle.
On a corner, you turn in early, before the corner, on power and feather the throttle through, no brakes. And drifting is not fast.
This site is supposed to be about cars. About time you talked about cars. This is not a Racing car site!
No info on new models, no info on awards won, no info on future models. No info on new global engines? Why not? Stop talking rubbish, and make the site work, or close the damn thing down.



This is a site about racing cars any time our membership choose to talk about it!
And if you knew any better (and in your ignorance you don't) there are references to such cars all over this site including the last few months.
Of course there are hundreds of members who take part in track days themselves - as well as our partners in motorsport clubs....

So as you've just broken the club constitution yet again its time for you to take your own bad mannered ignorant clap trap somewhere else and push off to circles of your own sort - you are not welcome on here.

Martin
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